purraport and interpritation

topic posted Mon, July 25, 2005 - 7:16 PM by  stevie
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if prabubpads bagavad gita is supposed to be "as it is" then could someone tell me why when krishna tells anjuna about giving to charity prabupads purrapot is to give to ISKCON???? i cant believe it!!!!

why would i give to ISKCON when i could give to mother tarisa who takes care of the dying and destitute for free gving medicins - or the salvation army and red cross that dedicate there lives to giving shealter to homless and trys to get peoples lives together.

ive just been to mayapur where there building a multi million dollar temple over poor peoples rice fields!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what is going on - the money that could be used to house the poor and give them medicin is going in to this??? and there is already a temple there !!!!!

the hare krishnas do feed alot of people and that is great - but there are other organisations doing the samething and alot more!! can someone explain this to me - in the west the general consencus among people is that ISCKON munipulates people and takes there money - i wonder if there right???

baffled
posted by:
stevie
Sydney
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    Re: purraport and interpritation

    Tue, July 26, 2005 - 4:29 AM
    HI nomad

    No Offence but you are thing on the Material Platform. The Hare Krsna Movement look after you spritual needs and your material needs. If you look in to the main teachings you will see that we are all spirt souls and the body is only a Vehicle. like you are driving a car. So ever think that is done, is done to please krsna.

    Hope this helps.
    • Re: purraport and interpritation

      Tue, July 26, 2005 - 8:48 AM
      i posted this in kirtan n bhajan tribe, but its worth posting again;)

      as an active member of iskcon- i have never once been asked for money. you must be very careful b4 making sweeping generalizations such as u have made that iskcon manipulates ppl 4 money. this is what we call slander. it is not only unethical, but illegal.

      now i realize these things will be difficult for u to understand but the things u mention (i.e. mother theresa, red cross etc) are pious activities but are not transcendantal (which means things above the modes of material nature for example service to krsna).

      now u mention that iskcon feeds ppl (we do a lot more but i digress), but that other organizations do the same. well do THEY offer it to the population as prasadam? i think not. we offer the hungry prasadam, which is not only sustenance but spiritual nourashing as well. the best welfare work we can do is to take care of someone spiritually, as this is eternal, and not only physically which is temporary.

      and if u look at the orphans who have been taken care of by iskcon and given a life that they love (bombay chowpatty is an excellent example). can u imagine the welfare work the mayapur temple will do? i can.

      in such a case donating to iskcon in real charity seems like an excellent thing in my opinion. try to understand that all the money in the world belongs to krsna/god/the creator and we use this resource back in his service thus taking care of his creation, humanity in a plethora of beneficial programs.
      • Re: purraport and interpritation

        Thu, July 28, 2005 - 5:02 AM
        hare bol my friend:-)

        listen i want to apoligise if i offended u :-) im not sure if i made my own jugment on iskon rather than what the general concensus is of people ive spoken to in society - i go to my local temple and have never been asked for money - but here is why im suspicious

        i wanted an explination for prabupads interpritation:-) seen as the purraports r supposed to be without personal opinion etc -

        to me charity is everything youve explained - im glad to hear what there doing in mumbai - that is great -

        i just think helping people means helping people survive - medicine, free treatment for the poor , helping them read and write , is essential and i believe that if i give to the red cross i will be making krishna happy - who can take up a new religion when there dying of some disease semi concious???

        many of these diseases in india etc r easily curable in the west. ngos therfore are invalliable - perhaps iskon could have there version of mother terisa and chant to patients while there dying - ??? who knows perhaps in muyapur in the future????



        i am new and have been chanting on and of for the past 3 years - after a spiritual experience in vrindavan -

        i know the power behind it !!!

        u r right i have a lot to learn - but telling people of all religions of the world, of all people to give to an organisation (any 1) seems perculier at this point in my spiriyual advancment - prabubapad said he was not trying to convert anyone - just to make christians better christians hindus better hindus jews better jews -

        at this stage of my spiritual advancement this seems like a contridiction to then in turn ask for money only to iskcon -

        please educate me:-)

        thanking u in advance:-)

        hare krishna
        • Re: purraport and interpritation

          Thu, July 28, 2005 - 6:44 AM
          thank u for ur nice reply, and i wasnt offended. im glad i clarified certain things. now, in regards to u giving to the red cross will krsna be happy? krsna listens to those in the mode of goodness, and although it is pious krsna is not directly linked to the red cross. so it is not bhakti (devotional service) this is a question of consciousness. if krsna is absent then he is not happy, he is not mad, BUT, if the individuals consciousness is focussed on krsna while performing slefless activities the krsna is pleased. but we cant leave him out of the equation.

          and prabhupada does present the gita as it is. the purport is there to explain what is presented. he is ACHARYA- (one who teaches by example) and he is empowered to do so. by him encouraging one to give to iskcon (as the highest form of charity) he is ensuring that ultimately all aspects will be taken care of. body, mind and SOUL :)

          im glad u like chanting, its our direct link to god
          much love 2 u
          haribol
          md
          • Re: purraport and interpritation

            Mon, August 15, 2005 - 8:47 AM
            i've been chanting the mahamantra for five years now and i'm very grateful for opportunity that has been presented to me from His Divine Grace. HOWEVER, i Do think my money would be put to better use if i gave to the poor or an organisation such as the Catholic Worker. all trancendental considerations aside, do we really believe that the Lord would be very pleased that while SOME of His children are allowed this wonderfully elaborate, gold embossed, gem studded temple to chant inside of many, many more are suffering and starving right outside the door. Food For Life aside it is my humble belief, and one that is informed by a direct spiritual experience i don't really need to get into here, that giving in charity, as in the christian sense, is much more productive than building yet another temple that will ultimately collapse when the world comes crashing down. however, in an act of charity the one who gives is elevated to a more sublime position, the fact that one is giving in the first place has transformative properties in that it places the giver outside him/herself and acknowledges another as just as important as oneself.
            in life, light and love
            • Re: purraport and interpritation

              Mon, August 15, 2005 - 9:26 AM
              i must say that when ppl ask (and it happens all the time) if we really believe that god is happy with our presenting him with an elaborate, gold embossed and gem studded temple, i would say yes, i definately believe this. that is what transcendant means. something presented to krsna (no matter how elaborate, or conversely, simple) with pure love is above and beyond the dualities that exist in this world (and yes that includes the suffering and unhappiness that exist in the world-i wouldnt say right outside the door, cuz this obviously doesnt apply to an iskcon temple, where prabhupadas order is that no one within 10 miles of the temple should starve).

              logically if we understand that everything comes from god, i.e. he is the possessor of all the riches available, when these resources are used back in his service, they take on a completely different aspect. like there was this rainbow girl at the temple, and she was all like " why does krsna have to wear all that jewelry and fancy stuff, cuz u know its just material!" i almost laughed in her face, but i held back, and rather asked her, "oh but the 3 hemp necklaces on ur neck arent? nor the rest of ur attire? yaa, she couldnt answer that. cuz everything, now matter how simple/or elaborate is material, it all depends on what we do with it.

              although charity is pious, no matter how u argue it, it is not something sunirmala. this doesnt mean that a vaisnava doesnt believe in serving and loving the soul that is suffering, on the contary, we very much empathize with that individual and try our best to alleviate their suffering, and i would dare say, that this is because of our krsna consciousness.

              and btw not in any iskcon temple are only SOME of his children allowed, everyone is allowed, in any place and at any time, even the destitute to chant, eat, enjoy and share....imagine that?
              • Re: purraport and interpritation

                Tue, August 16, 2005 - 9:46 AM
                "Prabupadas order is that no one within a 10 mile radius of the temple should starve."
                go tel that to the homeless brothers and sisters I met in and around Chicago, or Santa Cruz, or San Francisco, or Berkley, or, or, or... the list is infinite. but, it doesn't matter anyway, it's THEIR KARMA that they're suffering so... balls to THAT!!! Thank Krsna I'm a born again Christian.
                • Re: purraport and interpritation

                  Tue, August 16, 2005 - 9:54 AM
                  a vaisnava wouldnt be so vulgar and lacking in subtlety as to say its THEIR karma thats why they are suffering, our karma is y WE are all suffering. suffering is relative to circumstance my dear. and the homeless brothers n sisters are welcome to take prasadam in any temple, we ALL practice this.

                  and are there a lot of homeless ppl around the berkley temple? hmmm i think its a fab neighbourhood.

                  im glad ur a born again christian, more power to you. but seeing as though u dont believe/understand the concept of karma, one wonders what pray tell you are doing here?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: purraport and interpritation

                    Tue, August 16, 2005 - 3:59 PM
                    Prabhu just go any temple for their sunday feast and you will seee homeless, and is not like th other homeless do not know about the free sunday feast, I mean i know every crusty cor punk in portland and they all like us and know about our free feast, yet however they still rather sit underneath a bridge and drink, they also sometimes come but most of the time they prefer to drink underneath the bridge. What is the use of saving the dress of a drowning man. Better save the man, or both even better. To care for ones material needs is pious and good, but to help that same person with spiritual knowledge and thus give them the ability to stop their suffering is transcendental. Halleluyah
              • Re: purraport and interpritation

                Sun, August 21, 2005 - 11:13 PM
                TOTAL JERKBALL ASSBITE!!!!
                • Re: purraport and interpritation

                  Mon, September 26, 2005 - 3:39 AM
                  Well i agree that Mather terese did a fantastic work but olso in Mayapur they are doing a fantastic work creating sistems for wathering the fields of the farmers so the whater of the moonsun dont get wasted giving education to hundres of horfans ano poor childrens olso ther is the Bhaktivedanta hospital that gives free medical care to the poor and homeless.In Vrndavana some devotess whant to created a hospice for diyng etc etc etc and the list woes on incremantins on and on.Olso when S Prabhupad tolks of giving charity to Isckon he olso whants isckon to do oll this welfare activities. Olso S Prabhuoada tolld us of one wolk whith S Bhaktishidanta in which some poor people aproch the devotees asking for carity been in a wolk and not whanting to loose S Bhaktishidantas words they ingnor them S Bhatishidanta stop and toll them who they think they where to advance to give carity and made evryone to give something to this poor people so i tink this is a good example Jay sri Radhe
  • Re: purraport and interpritation

    Sat, October 15, 2005 - 11:31 AM
    I challenge your basic point, that the only thing that Srila Prabhupada says about charity in the Bhagavad Gita purports is that one should give to ISKCON.

    That is not at all true. Have you read the entire Bhagavad Gita as it is? If you haven't you should, and then draw your own conclusions. Srila Prabhupada says a whole lot more about charity than what you are saying.

    That being said the jist of your question is similar to one that Srila Prabhupada asked of his spiritual master the first time they met. Srila Prabhupada asked from a political point of view how will Krsna consciousness be received when India is the subject country of Britain. First India should become a free country and then preaching could go on. Srila Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati replied that the only real solution to the world's problems is Krsna consciousness. That any solution short of that is incomplete, because our real problem in the material world is a lack of Krsna consciousness. This is absolutely true, but one has to see with spiritual vision to see it. So it is true that the highest form of charity is to give Krsna consciousness. But that is not all that Srila Prabhupada says on the topic.

    Hare Krsna,

    Makhanchor das
    • Re: purraport and interpritation

      Sat, October 15, 2005 - 8:03 PM
      jai ho prabhu! all glories to ur response.
      • Re: purraport and interpritation

        Thu, November 3, 2005 - 10:21 AM
        what a great discussion. I don't have much to add except that in my own opinion I think the red cross and other institutions are not exactly what they seem to be. I read an article last week where the Red Cross was throwing away perfectly good blankets because they could not use them if they were not properly washed and rather then spend the time or money to find a place where they could do such tasks they were getting rid of those blankets. This was what one person working with the Red Cross in New Orleans had said from 1st hand experience. The response from the directors at the Red Cross was, that's not how we do things. I was shocked when I read this story and it made me question some of the inter-workings of their institution. I'm not doubting that they are a good company with good intentions, I just think there is a lot more that we don't know.

        I also wanted to state that I recently finished a sociology course in which it was stated that America is both the richest and POOREST country which came as quite of a shock to me, although I can see where in areas throughout the country this is true. I want to know what the Red Cross is doing about this or whether there money is better spent in other countries, which I'm sure at times it is.

        As far as the attack on the ISKCON temple I feel it is unfair. I think that there are plenty of other religious institutions who do the same thing. The Mormon temples and other churches are fantasticly decorated and equaly expensive and almost every religious institution I know of asks for donations from it's followers. I would have to concede to the belief that "manu" and other people said in that a spiritual salvation is in deed the most important thing in this time of Kali Yuga. none the less, food is a right and not a privilege and someday I hope we can sit down for a nice meal together.

        Haribol

        Sean C.
        • Re: purraport and interpritation

          Thu, November 3, 2005 - 12:14 PM
          Yes it is true that while hearing and chanting is the essense in this age, if one is hungry they will have a hard time practicing spiritual life.

          I talked to Madhuha when he was here in Seattle and there was a plan to go to New Orleans and do prasadam distribution. Just individual devotees that wanted to do something to help the people there. I thought it was a great idea. I'm sure it happened even though I haven't heard about it since then.
        • Re: purraport and interpritation

          Thu, November 3, 2005 - 1:46 PM
          yes for more information about Food For Life activities check
          www.ffl.org if you subscribe to their mailing list you can get updated info. I personally do service at the Dallas temple and we feed the homeless about 450 plates per week. I am sure that wherever you live you can also go to FFL and help out if you like.
          YOur servant
          Nityananda Ram Das
          • Re: purraport and interpritation

            Thu, November 3, 2005 - 4:09 PM
            Haribol,

            I am also rather new to this movement (3months) so please excuse any misunderstandings on my part. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. It took some time for me to understand that sentance. It is taking time for me to truely understand the greatness of Prabhupada and his achievements. I am slowly begining to appreciate his legacy. However, I, personally, still find that when I read his translations and purports, I have trouble believing that his word is the direct, unquestionable source. No offense meant. I apologize beforehand. I know this is a touchy subject. Let me elaborate.

            Many times Prabhupada talks about women, saying all kinds of things like "women like a man who is very expert at rape" (5th Canto) and "women are less intelligent" (everywhere). Now, I understand from conversations with devotees that he is not refering to devotee women. So, it seems that his translation needs translation. Why is that?

            It seems to me, that the best translation of the Bhagadva Gita and the Bhagadvatam would be one which does not need further translation. Also, Srila Prabhupada spent most of his life in India. Many traditional Indian views regarding women, society and social custom are very apparent in his words. Granted, some of these views are Vedic in root, but many stem from social circumstances and accepted thoguht patterns of that society. In the west, things in the material world are a little different. Prabhupada admits himself admits of shortcomings of his own translation in the Bhagadvatam, 1st Canto and also introduction.

            So, when it comes to spiritual instruction, I take S Prabhupadas words to be without a second, the divine word on the practice of self realization. however, when it comes to social commentary and discertation on the material world, perhaps he describes India, and some people in the west. I have spoken with many devotees, even a guru, who believe that the message could be easier to understand to us westerners if it were worded in a way more conscious of the culture in which we have been raised.

            As for the comment about laughing at the Rainbow girl for her comment about the jewelery of the dieties, please be gentle to us newer devotees, and find it in your heart to understand where we are coming from. Diety worship is very, very difficult to understand. Yes, hemp is adornment, but it is dirty and from the earth. Very different than an ornate spotless palace and gleaming dieties. I came to Krishna through Rainbow myself, and it is quite a change. At first we do not understand that what Krishna enjoys is our love as we serve him, not our offerings, be they palaces, jewelery, or food. He accepts our devotion. That concept, the concept of giving God our love, is easier to understand than giving God jewelery. Perhaps if you had mentioned that the jewelery is simply a represntation of love for God, she might have understood it better. Perhaps. That is my humble suggestion.

            Your Servant,

            Stacia
            • Re: purraport and interpritation

              Thu, November 3, 2005 - 4:56 PM
              my thoughts .. for what they are worth ;)

              nothing is "as it is" unless you are one with the consciousness from which it came... until you are fully dissolved into the infinite spirit.. the infinite Krishna Consciousness, you cannot comprehend the Gita "as it is" .. i do believe that Prabhupada was of that consciousness... so his translation and purports on the Gita are "as it is" .. BUT .. until we are of that same consciousness, we are very much at risk for misinterpreting his translations and purports.. so until we are, we have no right to go around saying anything is "as it is" .. so stop :)

              In Love with Krishna
              jamie
              • Re: purraport and interpritation

                Thu, November 3, 2005 - 5:07 PM
                Haribol Jamie.

                I agree that Prabhupada is at one with Krishna. And I agree that I am not. However, through my conversations with gurus, I have been hugely encouraged to ask questions, and to say those things that I have trouble understanding. Granted, my attitude has not always been as humble and submissive as it should. Now I reread what you say, and you say not to say things as they are. Ok, I agree. Perhaps I was attempting to do that. I apologize. What I mean to do is to ask questions, to attempt to understand these things. And that does require bringing these things up. Thank you, I will attempt to be more submissive in my questioning.

                Your Servant,

                Stacia
                • Re: purraport and interpritation

                  Thu, November 3, 2005 - 5:22 PM
                  oh no Stacia.. i wasn't addressing you :)
                  i was addressing the whole tribe and whoever else
                  your post just happened to be the last one, so i hit the "reply" button on yours
                  sorry for the confusion
            • Re: purraport and interpritation

              Thu, November 3, 2005 - 7:28 PM
              Hi Stacia,

              Thank you for a very intelligent inquiry. My favorite part is when you say "So, when it comes to spiritual instruction, I take S Prabhupadas words to be without a second, the divine word on the practice of self realization." I agree fully with that.

              And you are very right, that there is quite a large cultural gap between the east and the west. My humble advice is to not let that halt your inquiry and reading of Srila Prabhupada's books. They are written from a very different perspective than we are used to seeing in the west. They are written from the point of view of the soul. And they have information and inspiration that is pretty much not to be found anywhere else. So please don't let the differences in social trappings get in the way. Take only what serves you. In my experience there is a lot in Srila Prabhupada's books that will serve you. I would humbly say the same thing about devotees. We are far from perfect, but we are all trying our best.

              Sincerely,

              Makhanchor das
              • Re: purraport and interpritation

                Fri, November 4, 2005 - 7:56 AM
                Haribol Stacia !!!
                Thanks for your sincere questions. It seems like you are a great soul serving Krishna with devotion.
                What I have realized in the Hare Krishna Movemente is that there is a big difference between "woman" and "vaishnavis" as described in the scriptures. What Srila Pabhupada wrote and you mentioned here were related to mundane woman, not for vaishnavis.... Srila Prabhupada by his teachings and actions was very partial to his ladies devotees; he actually even made some changes in the vedic tradition for accomodate all the vaishnavis that were sincerely serving Krishna then. By example, it's not tradicional that woman in India receive second (brahmana) iniciation, but Srila Prabhupada iniciated this practice. Also in many other sevas that usually were done mostly by male devotees like deity worship, kirtan, etc. Srila Prabhupada always gave many opportunities for the vaishnavis... Everyday in the ISKCON temples all over the world the deities are worshiped in the morning with the sweet song of Govindam sang by a american vaishnavi, by Srila Prabhupada's direct order.
                I am sure there are devotees out there that can say more, specially the ones that met Prabhupada personally...
            • Re: purraport and interpritation

              Fri, November 4, 2005 - 8:18 AM
              stacia welcome! haribol

              i just want to say that i wasnt really gentle with that gurl (i should have been as it is the devotional thing to do) , but it was in response to her aggressive approach, that makes it more of a challenge to be soft-hearted. i am glad to kno u came to krsna thru rainbow, i have been many times the main cook at gatherings (regional) and have enjoyed myself thoroughly. as i watched all of the ppl enjoy prasadam. good times.

              i would also say, about the hemp necklaces (which i personally think are nice) regardless of being dirty and from the earth are no more spiritual than gold, gems or opulence (which are also from the earth). and although i didnt go into it in my post, i of course explained to her that all of these things presented to krsna (no matter how elaborate OR SIMPLE) if done with love n devotion, he accepts. u are quite right, it is easier to understand giving god our love, than giving him jewelry, although its the same, provided its done with the right consciousness.

              the point to understand, is that beauty comes from krsna, and there is no harm in presenting beautiful things back to their proprietor.

              and finally, about the women are less intelligent comments, u should google up on yamuna devi dasi (our movements most famous woman) and her comments about these rather controversial statements made. she explains that she was present when prabhupada made these comments, and it was 4 times. she explains that the 1st time all of the "women" (actually vaisnavis) were up in arms. the last time prabhupada said this, they were all in bombay, and he asked her publically: "yamuna, what do u think? are women less intelligent?" and she replied, ughhhh yes, prabhupada we are... and he said: AHAAA (pointing his finger at her) the only reason ud be less intelligent is to think that u ARE a women, you are not a woman, you are a VAISNAVI". i believe this explains it all. its important to look at the cultural differences prabhupada came from, but its more important to see how he transcended these barriers, and engaged ALL women in the service THEY liked (no matter how untraditional) according to their propensity. prabhupada didnt make the distinction between man/woman, or other material designations. he saw the spirit soul.

              love
              ur servant
              manu dasa

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